GM Crap

"RacinBob" (racinbob) 11/27/2016 at 15:54 • Filed to: None

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I like GM products, I was a co-op student at GM, and I wish GM well. But sometimes they make crap. My ‘07 Uplander has has not been bullet proof. In 8 years of ownership, I’ve replaced a transmission solenoid and currently stop leak is fixed my seeping intake manifold . If that were it, I could live with that because problems happen to any car.

But what I am not sympathetic to are crap problems caused by shoddy, cheap supply chain decisions.

1st example is my badge. If I had a dime for every time I’ve heard how important a corporate brand is, I’d be rich. So GM, if your brand is so important, how the heck do you use badges that disintegrate in 5 years? Low bidder crap mentality. Mary Barra, you ought to provide replacements for free.

Second example - ever notice how most GM van rear wipers older than 5 years are at half mast? The reason reason is that the wiper shaft goes through a pot metal housing and the housing corrosion locks the shaft, burning out the motor. Here’s mine that failed at about 5 years, I just got around to replacing it this weekend. Brilliant.

It’s not like it’s impossible to use parts that last. We just sold my wife’s 14 your old Civic Si with 200,000 mile that had virtually no problems. I’ve never seen a Honda rear wiper motor fail. I suppose if you compared the Honda rear motor to the GM, the differences would be obvious. It ain’t rocket science.

The problem with GM is (was) leadership encourages cheap, regardless of the consequences. I suppose it’s a “this quarter” profit mentality. Also I suppose JD Power doesn’t measure burned out wipers or disintegrating badges 6 years down the line.

Leaders either don’t know or don’t care. And they probably don’t think the customer knows or cares either. The result, the only way I will buy a GM product is to get a 2 years old one with 40% depreciation like my van and tolerate the quality. But I would not touch a new one.  

Probenja > RacinBob 11/27/2016 at 16:05

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GM is one of the worst automakers IMHO. They just love penny-pinching.

http://www.ibtimes.com/general-motors-ceo-mary-barra-defends-marketing-cars-do-not-include-airbags-2272299

404 - User No Longer Available > RacinBob 11/27/2016 at 16:07

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Well... think of the Uplander as an emergency refresh to the Venture van to make it look like an SUV in a dwindling market to crossovers. And the Venture van was an el-cheapo rebody of the original Lumina APV based on the same crappy chassis dating all the way back to 1990.

You get the picture. They’re still very popular in China and got 2 more redesigns, with the old van still being sold in parallel.

Bourbon&JellyBeans > RacinBob 11/27/2016 at 16:17

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My girlfriend’s 2006 Pontiac G6 GTP is a piece of crap. Where to start? The headlights have burnt out three times due to faulty wiring harnesses. The engine idles like a hummingbird on speed. The transmission clunks from first to second sometimes for no reason. The steering feels awful and its difficult to drive in a straight line. The steering isn’t too light, it’s actually kinda heavy, but has absolutely no feel whatsoever. The interior looks like it was designed by Fisher Price. The plastic handles on the seats have both fallen off. Virtually ALL of the window seals (including the moonroof) have needed replacing because they let moisture* in. All of the AC vents have broken. The interior rattles like a tin can. I could go on and on. It’s awful. And that’s the top of the line G6. It’s extremely obvious that GM just didn’t give a goddamn about the product. You might say, “well it must be a high-mileage car.” You’d be wrong! It’s a ten year old car with 88k miles on the odometer. I’d be disappointed if I owned a car with 150k miles on it if it were in the shape this car is in.

*I’ve actually come out in the dead of winter to warm the car up and had to sit there with frost on the inside of the windows.

Bourbon&JellyBeans > RacinBob 11/27/2016 at 16:20

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Oh, on top of all that, the Pontiac badges are so faded that they are basically slightly pink chrome arrow heads now.

RacinBob > Bourbon&JellyBeans 11/27/2016 at 16:33

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Clunk or lurch from first to second is a transmission is caused by a bad 1st gear solenoid, just like mine. The solenoid boosts system fluid pressure in 1st gear at low RPM when engine RPM is insufficient to lock the clutch. Without it, when you step on the gas, it slips and then slams in as the pressure comes up. Common problem with this transmission. As long as you drive around it and do not actually get clutch chatter, I think you can live with it.

About $1000 fixes it.

Bourbon&JellyBeans > RacinBob 11/27/2016 at 16:36

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Oh wow I always wondered. Thanks!

RacinBob > 404 - User No Longer Available 11/27/2016 at 16:38

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Got your point, but I do think the ‘06 and later Uplander was a clean sheet redesign based on the “new” impala of the same vintage. We really do enjoy the van, I tow my race car with it, it gets great gas mileage (18+ at 74 moh towing) and it is quiet, comfortable and rattle free. It’s the crap that I hate like bad rear wipers.

I will say, the 3.9 V6 is a sweet engine (intake gasket aside). It’s a pushrod variable valve timing engine, one of only two made. The other VVT pushrod is in the Vette.

Probenja > Bourbon&JellyBeans 11/27/2016 at 16:43

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Ah, Pontiac, makers of one of my favourite videos:

Bourbon&JellyBeans > Probenja 11/27/2016 at 16:47

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Yeah the poor guys never could figure out the engineering marvel that is the AC vent.

RacinBob > Probenja 11/27/2016 at 16:49

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It puts them in the same quality hell as Volkswagen. I swear GM’s and Volkswagen’s philosophy is if 60% of customers buy on lease, then design a car that lasts through the 3 year lease period, factory certify it for another 3 years, and then who cares.

The problem is that the only customers that will buy their cars are lease customers (at great subsidy cost) and rental car companies who dump them in 18 months.

If they want to fix it, it’s time for Mary Barra to pull a Hyundai and make their products with a 10 year bumper to bumper warranty. Product integrity isn’t hard, as long as you have a reason. A 10 year warranty would be a heck of a reason for them to develop some product integrity.

LongbowMkII > RacinBob 11/27/2016 at 16:50

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That platform is all the worst bits of GM distilled into pure grain shit.

RacinBob > Probenja 11/27/2016 at 16:51

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Awesome!

bob and john > RacinBob 11/27/2016 at 16:57

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at least VW’s cars were interesting or got good mileage.

RacinBob > Bourbon&JellyBeans 11/27/2016 at 17:02

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Interesting thing is I rented a brand new ‘06 Impala that did the same thing and it was a brand new car. I was in stop and go traffic on I-90 in Chicago, every time I took off on 1st gear it just slammed the takeoff. My van did the same thing from very early whenever the transmission was hot on the interstate. I think as long as you don’t abuse it, it can last a long time without repair. That means easy throttle tip in with no major power until it is engaged.

RacinBob > bob and john 11/27/2016 at 17:08

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A VW Rabbit was my 1st race car, and by rights I ought to be looking at a new GTI as it fits my requirements for a hot stick hatch.

But I have a bad habit of driving cars for 10 - 12 years before buying new. I just can’t stomach the thoughts of the many ways that a direct injection, turbocharged VW can let me down. Instead it will probably be another SI or Acura.

RacinBob > LongbowMkII 11/27/2016 at 17:11

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Well, given that in my 8 years, 90,000 miles of ownership my van has lost an AC compressor (dealer replaced under warranty), a major transmission repair maybe I am in denial and ought to agree with your assessment.  

bob and john > RacinBob 11/27/2016 at 17:12

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meh. I still think all of the ‘GARR VW IS CRAP” is still over exaggerated. our A3 TDI (basicly a golf TDI) is going on 5 years and 225k km now. I had to replace a sensor once, and clean out the EGR valve 3 times. in 5 years, and THAT many km, I call that a win.

DC3 LS, will be perpetually replacing cars until the end of time > Bourbon&JellyBeans 11/27/2016 at 17:17

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Those things are junk. My buddy had one that at 60k miles, it would leak so bad when it rained your heels would be submerged in a puddle after 10 minutes. I think I can count that as experiencing British Leyland build quality lol.

Shour, Aloof and Obnoxious > Probenja 11/27/2016 at 17:20

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I have not laughed this hard at a car video in a long time.

Abdominal cramps laughing. *pant pant pant*

Thanks for this.

Urambo Tauro > RacinBob 11/27/2016 at 17:20

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GM is a for-profit company with very clear priorities. Money first, good cars second. And they’re not the only one.

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > RacinBob 11/27/2016 at 17:23

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For every one good vehicle GM makes, they turn out three pieces of garbage.

RacinBob > bob and john 11/27/2016 at 17:35

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Yep, once a reputation is lost, it’s hard to know when it returns. Maybe new VW’s are great but I can recall horror stories of failed direct injection pumps, water pumps, failed window regulators , and 1.8 turbo cam belts catastrophically failing at 70,000 miles. Maybe those problems are behind them, but who knows.

I do know that at the shop I hang out, they hate VW with a passion for all the BS stuff that should never fail they see. As an example I remember the day that I saw one of the guys with the door apart while replacing the passenger door wiring harness. They hate it when they have to tell the customer it will be $800+ to fix their wiring.

I commented to them mechanic about what a miserable job it must be, and he commended that he was now an expert. He had already replaced the other three door harnesses on this car. He also had replaced the two harnesses on his own car...

Now come on, car companies have been wiring doors for 60 years, so how hard can it be to provide a harness that will last the life of the car? Well it was apparently it’s too hard for VW to get right all the time. And if they can’t door doors right, it’s hard for me to trust them on really tough stuff like direct injection.

RacinBob > RacinBob 11/27/2016 at 17:39

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PS - My Porsche, BMW, Audi buddy’s admits has mid 0's Audi A3 was a disaster. And he is a guy who won’t drive anything but European cars.

Now granted my dad’s 2000 A6 has been great, but that car isn’t VW derived.  

bob and john > RacinBob 11/27/2016 at 17:40

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ours is a 2010, seem that 08 is kinda the year where it all clicked and the elctrical issues more or less disappeared.

Logansteno: Bought a VW? > RacinBob 11/27/2016 at 17:50

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Their products from... I wanna say 2012 back were incredibly hit and miss for quality. My 2002 S10 is seems pretty well built considering the era it comes from and everything functions like new save the oil pressure gauge. My dad’s 2004 Silverado is starting to get iffy at 140,000 miles though. Lots of electrical gremlins (however many of those are tied to the aftermarket alarm, we’ll never know but probably a lot) as well as leaks from a few places on the engine.

The newer stuff I work on at work (Buick/GMC technician) all seems pretty solid all round. Interiors are obviously leaps and bounds ahead of the older stuff and I don’t see many come back in for anything offputtingly bad. The worst I can think of is 8-speed Yukons and Sierra can get a torque converter shutter that requires a new torque converter under warranty.

Chasaboo > Probenja 11/27/2016 at 17:56

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Epic.

Chasaboo > RacinBob 11/27/2016 at 18:06

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I have owned both GM and VW so I am qualified to speak on both.

I had a GMC Sonoma pickup which was good up to about 45,000 miles and then after that it was nothing but trouble. You name it, and it broke. At 70,000 miles the transmission let go. Don’t get me wrong it had a great Vortech motor and the interior was reasonable for the price. But that being said, I will never own another GM product, just too much trouble.

The Volkswagen Golf I had was a mechanical disaster right from the beginning, CV joints, cooling system, radiator, water pump, and that’s just the beginning. Bad wiring caused the interior to catch fire so my dad forced me to sell it. I was young and still loved driving it and that really hurt to let it go.

Now I drive a Honda with zero problems. It’s almost boring at this point but a lot of fun with a great manual transmission. And it has the best color for a car ever, purple. I’ve saved so much money driving this car it’s insane.

RacinBob > bob and john 11/27/2016 at 18:08

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It’s easy to tell when a car manufacturer has lost it’s way on building quality cars, it’s hard to tell when they get it back. Glad to hear you are having good success with yours.

Everything I read about the new GTI indicates it’s a very nice car. And I suspect I can get a smoking hot deal on one. Who knows.

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > Bourbon&JellyBeans 11/27/2016 at 18:36

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Could be worse, could be the fifth gen Malibu, especially from 04-05 when they were marketed as the “Chevy Classic”.

RacinBob > Chasaboo 11/27/2016 at 18:45

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Same for me with Honda’s. We’ve owned 6 of them for a combined total 52 ownership years (She from ‘87, me from ‘93) and a total of 400,000 miles. We have replaced a couple of front wheel bearings, and maybe 3 CV joints. (the most recent being 15 years ago). Her ‘02 Civic Si went 195,000 miles and everything worked like new when we sold it this year. No rattles, no seat tears, no rust, no problems at all. Same story with my ‘93 Si that we sold after 14 years.

It’s hard to consider anything other than a Honda when we have an experience like that. If only they would make a Si hatch for US.

mazda616 > RacinBob 11/27/2016 at 18:52

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I feel your pain, brother.

I had a 1999 Pontiac Grand Am GT1. It was (believe it or not) a very reliable and decently put together machine. Maybe I got a factory freak, I don’t know. I sold it in 2009 with 131,000 miles and I still see it around town to this day. It has well over 200k on it now.

However, my wife had a 2006 Chevrolet Malibu LT (pictured above) when we got married. She bought it when we were starting college in 2008, when the Malibu had 44,000 miles. Between 44,000 and 86,000 miles (it had that on it in December 2012 when we traded it in), it had the following issues:

- Looose/rattling headlight (no accident damage - it just came loose).

- Doors that all but refused to shut.

- THREE CD players jammed and refused to eject CDs.

- Slipping transmission.

- Hard starts (never did find the cause of that).

- Door switch on the fritz making the car think the door was open when it wasn’t. It set off the alarm several times at around 5:00 A.M.

- Every plastic bit in the interior was broken. Vents, sun visors, door lock pullers on the doors, and the blank trim covers where buttons would be if the car was more optioned. - even they broke and fell off.

- Door/alarm chime began to go out.

- Power steering (electric) that would lock up upon hard acceleration. The car would lose power steering and chime three times but never show any codes or error messages.

- Upholstery that stained if you spilled water on it. Yes. Even water.

- The whole front end required replacing at around 80,000 miles. Never figured that out, either. But basically everything suspension related under the front end was shot.

I took good care of the car, making sure it received all required and preventative maintenance and neither my wife nor I drove it hard. It just didn’t hold up well. At all.

Overall, that Malibu was just incredibly cheap and shoddily built. It was embarrassing. My ‘99 Grand Am was worlds better, and that’s saying something.

The early and mid-2000s were dark, dark times for GM.

RacinBob > Logansteno: Bought a VW? 11/27/2016 at 19:04

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I hope they get better, and I hope that this string in some small part encourages them to get better. The cars in whole seem much better built recently. I just hopt that are sweating the little things like wiper motor and badge quality is overcome.and not just doing crap business as usual.

This is a leadership problem. If the leader who saves 5 cents a car with craptastic badge gets a bonus and promotion, it sends a message. If the leader that approved craptastic badges is fired, it sends a message. Which message do you want GM?

You can’t say that exceptional quality at decent price and quality can’t be done, Honda and Toyota do it every day. Now I am sure both those companies have their horror stories, all do, But at least with Honda, I and most of my neighbors that have Honda’s have not had the problems that are common with GM.

If GM is to thrive, it needs to do the little things better. Just like Honda and Toyota. I like GM, I want to see it succeed.

RacinBob > mazda616 11/27/2016 at 19:21

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I love your comment about the Malibu front suspension being shot at 88k. I should have mentioned, I’ve lost one sway link and the original shocks are long gone. Also the lower A arm bushing are fails. Meanwhile my wife’s ‘02 Civic was sold at 200k miles with original shocks, ball joints, rod links and everything. I practically begged my mechanic to find something to replace and all we could justify were the sway links.

By the way, I have had decent success with prior GM cars. I had a ‘74 Pontiac Transport and a ‘84 Citation X-11 that both survived heavy use without major problems. I just am annoyed at how the quality on the little things has slipped.

Bourbon&JellyBeans > Eric @ opposite-lock.com 11/27/2016 at 20:32

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*shivers*

RacinBob > Urambo Tauro 11/27/2016 at 21:11

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Honda is more of a for profit company than GM though. Moreso because nobody will bail Honda out if profits disappear. Honda proves that profit, good supply chain, and good quality can be done as long as the leadership and culture is committed.

pip bip - choose Corrour > RacinBob 11/28/2016 at 04:10

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GM quality? (one of, if not the biggest oxymoron there is) is so bad it’s not funny. the crap (i’m being generous) coming from GM Korea (formerly Daewoo) is appalling! SO many oil leaks from Z22D1 motors in Craptivas. also oil cooler leaks on 1.8l & 1.4T Cruze , turbos on 1.4T from owners skipping oil services. Cruze heater box failures ,thermostats shitting the bed.

auto failures in Cruze/Craptiva , suspension probs in early Craptivas/Cruze

Colorado 2.8TD oil consumption, had 2 get towed in as the motor had seized from running on no oil. front AND rear suspension probs, i mean leaf springs are old tech, HOW do you cock that up!

plus the local Commodore! fuck me!

pip bip - choose Corrour > Urambo Tauro 11/28/2016 at 04:11

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good cars second?

what planet are you on!?

good cars come maybe 5th!

RacinBob > pip bip - choose Corrour 11/28/2016 at 08:24

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Why they have for oil leaks interests me. What do you think the cause is? Is it

1. Good technology, bad assembly? ie plant or supplier not doing consistent job

2. Bad design that they did not catch in testing?

3. New technology that wasn’t fully developed?

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > Bourbon&JellyBeans 11/28/2016 at 11:09

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It is like this, only they didn’t even try for mediocrity there.

On the other hand, the newer engines they put in these were unconscionably reliable provided you occasionally changed the oil. The adage about a GM engine running longer poorly than most cars run at all is very true, but the body/interior/electrical in the car couldn’t even come close to touching the longevity of the drivetrain. It’s kind of a classic GM problem, honestly.

pip bip - choose Corrour > RacinBob 11/28/2016 at 17:16

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Combo of 1 & 2 , more bad design than anything

RacinBob > pip bip - choose Corrour 11/28/2016 at 19:28

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Too bad. As I like to say; the great thing about mass production is that it gives you the chance to apologize to more people than you ever thought humanly possible.